1 00:00:04,820 --> 00:00:02,659 ordinary people are seeing extraordinary 2 00:00:07,730 --> 00:00:04,830 things in our skies but how has it 3 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:07,740 changed those involved from author Ryan 4 00:00:11,900 --> 00:00:10,050 spread somewhere in the skies a human 5 00:00:13,610 --> 00:00:11,910 approach to an alien phenomenon is a 6 00:00:16,220 --> 00:00:13,620 personal journey that also weaves 7 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:16,230 together a story of stories furiously 8 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:17,880 pumping new blood into the heart of 9 00:00:22,609 --> 00:00:20,250 these mysteries one experience at a time 10 00:00:24,439 --> 00:00:22,619 now available on Amazon in paperback and 11 00:00:37,610 --> 00:00:24,449 ebook for more information visit 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:37,620 somewhere in the skies calm if somewhere 13 00:00:41,210 --> 00:00:56,920 [Music] 14 00:01:01,160 --> 00:00:59,510 please welcome from the center of UFO 15 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:01,170 studies and Evanston Illinois dr. J 16 00:01:09,380 --> 00:01:06,210 Allen Hynek dr. honey when you first get 17 00:01:11,540 --> 00:01:09,390 a when you first get a report of a 18 00:01:13,700 --> 00:01:11,550 sighting is your job to assemble 19 00:01:15,530 --> 00:01:13,710 evidence that will prove it to be so or 20 00:01:16,910 --> 00:01:15,540 to assemble evidence to prove that it 21 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:16,920 did not happen you know there are two 22 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:18,570 ways to go on any investigation the 23 00:01:22,900 --> 00:01:20,490 first thing we do is to try to disprove 24 00:01:25,639 --> 00:01:22,910 it because what is the point of 25 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:25,649 perpetuating a myth or it isn't so and 26 00:01:31,130 --> 00:01:28,050 it turns out that some 90% of the 27 00:01:33,170 --> 00:01:31,140 reports we have a nationwide police 28 00:01:36,499 --> 00:01:33,180 network an 800 number that the police 29 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:36,509 use and we get reports every night from 30 00:01:40,490 --> 00:01:38,250 police department or different parts of 31 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:40,500 the country most of them are planets 32 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:43,290 twinkling stars explainable or I get 33 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:45,450 excited IFO as we call them identifiable 34 00:01:49,340 --> 00:01:47,130 flying obvious but that remaining 10% 35 00:01:51,139 --> 00:01:49,350 those are the ones they go after now UFO 36 00:01:52,460 --> 00:01:51,149 the UN UFO of course simply means 37 00:01:55,219 --> 00:01:52,470 unidentified it does not necessarily 38 00:01:57,199 --> 00:01:55,229 mean visitors from outer space but it 39 00:01:59,600 --> 00:01:57,209 must be unidentified not just to the 40 00:02:01,040 --> 00:01:59,610 person who is puzzled by it but it must 41 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:01,050 remain unidentified 42 00:02:07,609 --> 00:02:02,970 after considerable study then and only 43 00:02:09,350 --> 00:02:07,619 then is it a UFO in June of 1947 Private 44 00:02:11,750 --> 00:02:09,360 Pilot Kenneth Arnold looked at his 45 00:02:14,390 --> 00:02:11,760 cockpit window and saw a group of nine 46 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:14,400 silvery crescents weaving between the 47 00:02:19,699 --> 00:02:16,290 peaks of the Cascade Mountains at an 48 00:02:22,250 --> 00:02:19,709 estimated speed of 1,200 miles an hour 49 00:02:24,620 --> 00:02:22,260 the media the military in the scientific 50 00:02:26,990 --> 00:02:24,630 community led by J Allen Hynek an 51 00:02:30,350 --> 00:02:27,000 astronomer hired by the Air Force to 52 00:02:31,730 --> 00:02:30,360 bunk this and many other UFOs but after 53 00:02:34,699 --> 00:02:31,740 years of denial 54 00:02:38,420 --> 00:02:34,709 Hynek made a shocking pronouncement UFOs 55 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:38,430 are real today I talked to author mark 56 00:02:43,790 --> 00:02:41,130 O'Connell about his new book the Close 57 00:02:46,729 --> 00:02:43,800 Encounters man how one man made the 58 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:46,739 world believe in UFOs Mark O'Connell 59 00:02:50,330 --> 00:02:48,090 broke into the television business 60 00:02:52,850 --> 00:02:50,340 writing several episodes of Star Trek 61 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:52,860 The Next Generation and Star Trek Deep 62 00:02:57,559 --> 00:02:55,170 Space nine Marcus had feature film 63 00:03:00,380 --> 00:02:57,569 projects optioned and/or developed with 64 00:03:03,020 --> 00:03:00,390 Disney DreamWorks Animation Barcelona 65 00:03:05,780 --> 00:03:03,030 films endless Entertainment Group and El 66 00:03:08,270 --> 00:03:05,790 ruddy productions he was also a 67 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:08,280 Maroof on field investigator with 68 00:03:13,220 --> 00:03:10,530 unprecedented access to J Allen Hynek 69 00:03:16,009 --> 00:03:13,230 personal and professional files marks 70 00:03:18,890 --> 00:03:16,019 smashes conventional wisdom to reveal 71 00:03:21,649 --> 00:03:18,900 the intriguing man and scientist beneath 72 00:03:23,780 --> 00:03:21,659 the legend tracing hynek's career market 73 00:03:25,759 --> 00:03:23,790 examines hynek's often ignored work as a 74 00:03:27,949 --> 00:03:25,769 professional astronomer to create a 75 00:03:31,039 --> 00:03:27,959 complete portrait of a groundbreaking 76 00:03:33,199 --> 00:03:31,049 lousiest who became an American cult 77 00:03:36,379 --> 00:03:33,209 icon and transform the way we see our 78 00:03:39,289 --> 00:03:36,389 world and our universe so without 79 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:39,299 further ado here's our conversation with 80 00:03:44,479 --> 00:03:42,090 Mark O'Connor mark thank you so much for 81 00:03:46,970 --> 00:03:44,489 joining me today is book release day so 82 00:03:48,830 --> 00:03:46,980 I'm so honored and excited to have you 83 00:03:50,119 --> 00:03:48,840 on the show thanks Ryan I'm thrilled to 84 00:03:51,559 --> 00:03:50,129 be here I really appreciate the 85 00:03:54,830 --> 00:03:51,569 invitation to come in and talk to your 86 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:54,840 listeners of course well I guess let's 87 00:04:00,440 --> 00:03:57,090 start at the beginning we don't often 88 00:04:04,069 --> 00:04:00,450 see biographies written within the UFO 89 00:04:07,339 --> 00:04:04,079 subject if ever so what made you want to 90 00:04:10,069 --> 00:04:07,349 write a book about J Allen Hynek well I 91 00:04:13,159 --> 00:04:10,079 didn't set out wanting to write a book 92 00:04:15,490 --> 00:04:13,169 about J Allen Hynek the genesis of this 93 00:04:19,969 --> 00:04:15,500 which was kind of weird and improbable 94 00:04:24,050 --> 00:04:19,979 about six years ago 2011 I had the idea 95 00:04:25,460 --> 00:04:24,060 to start writing a UFO blog but not just 96 00:04:28,270 --> 00:04:25,470 about UFOs it was going to be 97 00:04:31,430 --> 00:04:28,280 specifically about my experiences 98 00:04:33,409 --> 00:04:31,440 becoming a certified UFO field 99 00:04:36,230 --> 00:04:33,419 investigator for MUFON the mutual UFO 100 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:36,240 network and then and then blogging about 101 00:04:41,450 --> 00:04:38,370 my adventures in the field as I 102 00:04:43,430 --> 00:04:41,460 investigated UFO reports so that's how 103 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:43,440 it all started out about a year into 104 00:04:47,510 --> 00:04:45,930 that and I was I was really loving 105 00:04:50,300 --> 00:04:47,520 writing this blog having a lot of fun 106 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:50,310 you know I would only get maybe 12 or 15 107 00:04:55,010 --> 00:04:52,650 page views a day but you know that was 108 00:04:57,710 --> 00:04:55,020 enough to keep me going yeah and then 109 00:04:59,450 --> 00:04:57,720 about about a year into it I you know I 110 00:05:01,700 --> 00:04:59,460 was constantly scouring the internet for 111 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:01,710 interesting UFO stories I can I can 112 00:05:07,399 --> 00:05:03,810 mention in the blog and I came across a 113 00:05:09,950 --> 00:05:07,409 website for the jail and Hynek Center 114 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:09,960 for UFO studies and discovered that it 115 00:05:13,850 --> 00:05:12,330 still was in existence which shocked me 116 00:05:15,510 --> 00:05:13,860 because their website looked like it had 117 00:05:20,470 --> 00:05:15,520 been put together 118 00:05:22,210 --> 00:05:20,480 yeah literally and but they were still 119 00:05:24,340 --> 00:05:22,220 going concerned and there was somebody 120 00:05:26,710 --> 00:05:24,350 in charge a gentleman named Mark Roger 121 00:05:28,810 --> 00:05:26,720 and I thought wow this I knew a little 122 00:05:30,190 --> 00:05:28,820 bit about dr. Hynek I knew about his 123 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:30,200 involvement in the movie Close 124 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:33,530 Encounters of the third time I knew a 125 00:05:37,810 --> 00:05:35,330 little bit about the swamp gas story 126 00:05:39,580 --> 00:05:37,820 from the 1960s but I didn't know a whole 127 00:05:42,820 --> 00:05:39,590 lot about I just knew he was an 128 00:05:45,130 --> 00:05:42,830 important guy in the study of UFOs so I 129 00:05:47,500 --> 00:05:45,140 contacted mark rodiger who's not a 130 00:05:50,650 --> 00:05:47,510 scientific director of the Hynek Center 131 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:50,660 for UFO studies and said hey I'm writing 132 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:52,730 this little blog at what I live up here 133 00:05:56,980 --> 00:05:54,890 I was living in Chicago at the time so 134 00:05:58,780 --> 00:05:56,990 that I'd love to stop by and just see 135 00:06:00,820 --> 00:05:58,790 what you're doing with your archives so 136 00:06:05,260 --> 00:06:00,830 he invited me to stop by for a visit 137 00:06:09,820 --> 00:06:05,270 and I discovered that what was left of 138 00:06:13,290 --> 00:06:09,830 dr. Hynek work was one half of mark 139 00:06:18,750 --> 00:06:13,300 Rogers basement and smelled Chicago 140 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:18,760 bunch of broken-down old file cabinets 141 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:21,650 ancient ancient manila folders just 142 00:06:27,450 --> 00:06:23,690 stuffed with documents letters and 143 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:27,460 reports and and all sorts of things and 144 00:06:33,460 --> 00:06:30,890 shelf after shelf after shelf of UFO 145 00:06:36,490 --> 00:06:33,470 books that the center had collected over 146 00:06:39,250 --> 00:06:36,500 the years and I was kind of shocked at 147 00:06:42,100 --> 00:06:39,260 the condition of the archives but I was 148 00:06:44,710 --> 00:06:42,110 also just amazed at the material that 149 00:06:47,710 --> 00:06:44,720 was hidden away inside all of us file 150 00:06:49,420 --> 00:06:47,720 drawer so I I just I just was eating it 151 00:06:51,430 --> 00:06:49,430 up and one of those it turned into two 152 00:06:53,250 --> 00:06:51,440 visits and then three visits and then at 153 00:06:58,060 --> 00:06:53,260 some point or another 154 00:07:00,610 --> 00:06:58,070 mark mark said hey uh we here at coop 155 00:07:02,890 --> 00:07:00,620 rosehip we've always wanted to recruit 156 00:07:05,350 --> 00:07:02,900 the writer to write the definitive 157 00:07:06,969 --> 00:07:05,360 account of dr. honey's career and I 158 00:07:08,860 --> 00:07:06,979 wonder if you'd be interested when I 159 00:07:11,940 --> 00:07:08,870 said heck yeah I would love that that's 160 00:07:15,190 --> 00:07:11,950 like a dream a dream job for me so 161 00:07:19,270 --> 00:07:15,200 that's how it all started so so first 162 00:07:22,420 --> 00:07:19,280 off I had access to dr. hynek's archives 163 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:22,430 in professional files in mark's basement 164 00:07:27,940 --> 00:07:24,530 quickly found out that there was another 165 00:07:28,660 --> 00:07:27,950 KU post versity mary Kastner who lived 166 00:07:31,060 --> 00:07:28,670 about 10 167 00:07:33,550 --> 00:07:31,070 miles away in Skokie Mary had the other 168 00:07:36,910 --> 00:07:33,560 half of the file in her basement she 169 00:07:39,670 --> 00:07:36,920 held the Case Files then found out that 170 00:07:41,590 --> 00:07:39,680 because dr. Hynek had spent so much of 171 00:07:43,660 --> 00:07:41,600 his professional career as an astronomer 172 00:07:46,180 --> 00:07:43,670 teaching at Northwestern University in 173 00:07:48,070 --> 00:07:46,190 Evanston just a few miles from Skokie I 174 00:07:50,050 --> 00:07:48,080 started going to their library and 175 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:50,060 discovering that they had they had just 176 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:52,850 immense an immense collection of dr. 177 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:55,130 Hynix professional papers from his time 178 00:07:59,290 --> 00:07:57,530 at Northwestern so that those things all 179 00:08:01,930 --> 00:07:59,300 just sort of fell together came together 180 00:08:04,660 --> 00:08:01,940 at the same time and that's how the 181 00:08:06,700 --> 00:08:04,670 biography was born and it wasn't it was 182 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:06,710 never intended to be a full biography 183 00:08:10,540 --> 00:08:08,090 because they don't spend a whole lot of 184 00:08:12,070 --> 00:08:10,550 time on his home life and his family 185 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:12,080 life that would be a whole nother book 186 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:14,930 so the focus of the book is on his his 187 00:08:18,790 --> 00:08:17,570 dual careers and I think that to me 188 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:18,800 that's what made the story so 189 00:08:24,010 --> 00:08:21,050 interesting the fact that he was not 190 00:08:27,610 --> 00:08:24,020 just this world-renowned UFO researcher 191 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:27,620 but he was also a pretty accomplished 192 00:08:32,410 --> 00:08:29,930 astronomer with a whole lot of really 193 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:32,420 amazing really amazing scientific 194 00:08:36,969 --> 00:08:34,370 breakthroughs to his name but very few 195 00:08:38,410 --> 00:08:36,979 people seem to know about so so you know 196 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:38,420 when I learned that I was going to be 197 00:08:42,670 --> 00:08:40,130 writing about these two different 198 00:08:44,290 --> 00:08:42,680 stories these two different careers that 199 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:44,300 kind of gave me the shape of the 200 00:08:48,490 --> 00:08:46,850 biography or the book and and off I went 201 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:48,500 right yeah and like you mentioned not 202 00:08:53,050 --> 00:08:50,530 many people know about his is 203 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:53,060 accomplishments and success within the 204 00:08:57,420 --> 00:08:55,250 you know the Astronomy field so I think 205 00:09:00,880 --> 00:08:57,430 that's what you did best that and 206 00:09:04,090 --> 00:09:00,890 bringing forth kind of the UFO history 207 00:09:08,230 --> 00:09:04,100 into this you interweave all of these 208 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:08,240 famous UFO cases into hynek's life and 209 00:09:14,050 --> 00:09:11,090 essentially career and you bring up a 210 00:09:16,390 --> 00:09:14,060 case that really sort of kicked off the 211 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:16,400 air force's involvement in UFO 212 00:09:20,650 --> 00:09:18,410 investigation and that was the mental 213 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:20,660 case could you for our listeners who may 214 00:09:24,130 --> 00:09:22,610 not be familiar with this case Marc 215 00:09:25,660 --> 00:09:24,140 could you tell us a little bit about 216 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:25,670 this case and how the Air Force got 217 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:29,650 involved sure this happened very very 218 00:09:35,980 --> 00:09:33,110 early in the stages of the modern UFO 219 00:09:38,110 --> 00:09:35,990 saying which of course celebrates a 70th 220 00:09:40,330 --> 00:09:38,120 anniversary this month 70th anniversary 221 00:09:43,420 --> 00:09:40,340 of the Kim Economist writing in 222 00:09:49,570 --> 00:09:43,430 Pacific Northwest but the mantle crash 223 00:09:52,420 --> 00:09:49,580 took place in in early 1948 Mintel was a 224 00:09:55,620 --> 00:09:52,430 National Air National Guard pilot and he 225 00:09:59,079 --> 00:09:55,630 and three other pilots were ferrying 226 00:10:00,640 --> 00:09:59,089 four p-51 Mustangs from a base down 227 00:10:03,519 --> 00:10:00,650 south back up to their home base in 228 00:10:05,500 --> 00:10:03,529 Kentucky it was meant to be a low-level 229 00:10:07,570 --> 00:10:05,510 flight so only one of the four planes 230 00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:07,580 was equipped with oxygen that's an 231 00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:09,710 important point the day that these 232 00:10:15,070 --> 00:10:13,040 planes were all flying north to Kentucky 233 00:10:16,990 --> 00:10:15,080 all sorts of people in Northern Kentucky 234 00:10:18,670 --> 00:10:17,000 and southern Ohio started seeing this 235 00:10:20,290 --> 00:10:18,680 strange thing in the sky and people were 236 00:10:22,150 --> 00:10:20,300 calling their local police departments 237 00:10:24,910 --> 00:10:22,160 the local police departments were in 238 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:24,920 turn calling the local air force bases 239 00:10:32,710 --> 00:10:30,410 and and everyone was seeing the strange 240 00:10:34,300 --> 00:10:32,720 object floating through the sky that 241 00:10:36,850 --> 00:10:34,310 looked like it looked to some people 242 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:36,860 like a gigantic ice cream cone they'd 243 00:10:42,910 --> 00:10:38,510 let other people like a gigantic 244 00:10:44,770 --> 00:10:42,920 umbrella and it was just sort of hanging 245 00:10:48,130 --> 00:10:44,780 out there in the sky for everyone to see 246 00:10:51,250 --> 00:10:48,140 and the the control tower operators at 247 00:10:54,220 --> 00:10:51,260 the Standiford which is the air base at 248 00:10:57,070 --> 00:10:54,230 Fort Knox in Kentucky um they were 249 00:10:59,950 --> 00:10:57,080 tracking this object visually they 250 00:11:02,650 --> 00:10:59,960 learned that Mantell and his crew were 251 00:11:04,390 --> 00:11:02,660 flying through the area and they radioed 252 00:11:06,850 --> 00:11:04,400 captain mantle and said hey we've got 253 00:11:08,770 --> 00:11:06,860 this we've got this strange thing in the 254 00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:08,780 sky you're going to be flying pretty 255 00:11:12,850 --> 00:11:11,000 close to it would you and your guys mind 256 00:11:15,490 --> 00:11:12,860 just taking a little detour to try to 257 00:11:17,980 --> 00:11:15,500 get a closer look at this well they did 258 00:11:20,020 --> 00:11:17,990 and one of the planes was short on fuel 259 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:20,030 so it's just continued on to its home 260 00:11:24,490 --> 00:11:22,130 base the other three turned and started 261 00:11:26,290 --> 00:11:24,500 chasing this object two of the planes 262 00:11:28,390 --> 00:11:26,300 just sort of gave up and dropped out but 263 00:11:31,060 --> 00:11:28,400 Mansell kept going he made visual 264 00:11:33,100 --> 00:11:31,070 contact with this thing he's his last 265 00:11:34,810 --> 00:11:33,110 radio contacts were just to tell the 266 00:11:36,730 --> 00:11:34,820 control tower operators that if it 267 00:11:39,370 --> 00:11:36,740 appeared to be metallic and indicating 268 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:39,380 it was immense in size and then they 269 00:11:44,590 --> 00:11:41,810 lost contact with menzel well three 270 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:44,600 minutes later man tells plane comes 271 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:46,970 screaming out of the sky over a farm in 272 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:48,490 Northern Kentucky and just it just 273 00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:52,250 crashes into the into the ground and is 274 00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:53,760 disintegrated 275 00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:55,680 investigators find that man sells 276 00:12:00,500 --> 00:11:57,930 cockpit had never been open so the 277 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:00,510 theory is that he either passed out or 278 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:02,970 was asphyxiated because he flew too high 279 00:12:07,430 --> 00:12:04,290 he flew higher than he should have 280 00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:07,440 without oxygen so the upshot of all of 281 00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:09,570 this is that UFOs New York owes were 282 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:11,310 still a fairly new phenomenon at this 283 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:13,050 point but all of a sudden they were a 284 00:12:17,389 --> 00:12:14,850 deadly phenomenon this was the first 285 00:12:21,470 --> 00:12:17,399 time that a military pilot a highly 286 00:12:23,870 --> 00:12:21,480 trained fearless military pilot had 287 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:23,880 actually chased a UFO and died because 288 00:12:29,629 --> 00:12:26,490 of it so it put a real chill into the 289 00:12:32,300 --> 00:12:29,639 air and it made it mentally important 290 00:12:34,910 --> 00:12:32,310 that project sign the Air Force's newly 291 00:12:37,129 --> 00:12:34,920 minted UFO investigation project they 292 00:12:39,110 --> 00:12:37,139 needed answers fast because people are 293 00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:39,120 very very nervous about the fact that 294 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:41,360 the military pilot had just died 295 00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:46,050 pursuing what what seemed to be it's 296 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:48,720 possibly some sort of alien craft in the 297 00:12:54,860 --> 00:12:52,769 sky yes yeah absolutely and you know in 298 00:12:56,810 --> 00:12:54,870 terms of that we also have another case 299 00:12:59,180 --> 00:12:56,820 that involved pilots and that was the 300 00:13:01,819 --> 00:12:59,190 Clarence chalice and john witted case 301 00:13:03,740 --> 00:13:01,829 and this really seemed to be an 302 00:13:06,530 --> 00:13:03,750 important moment in terms of the air 303 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:06,540 force's attempts to debunk these UFOs 304 00:13:10,250 --> 00:13:08,490 before they really got out of hand 305 00:13:12,290 --> 00:13:10,260 would you mind touching on this case 306 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:12,300 briefly for us before we get into 307 00:13:16,670 --> 00:13:14,490 hynek's involvement yeah and of course 308 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:16,680 I'd never do it briefly yeah yeah no 309 00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:19,170 please Wow 310 00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:21,360 and this is one of my favorite cases so 311 00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:23,220 I'm really glad you're asking about it 312 00:13:28,430 --> 00:13:26,910 cool it followed hot on the heels of the 313 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:28,440 Kenneth Arnold sighting and then the 314 00:13:34,970 --> 00:13:32,250 Thomas Mantell crash in Eastern Airlines 315 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:34,980 flight traveling across the southern 316 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:36,930 United States heading heading east 317 00:13:42,170 --> 00:13:39,569 towards Atlanta flying over 318 00:13:45,379 --> 00:13:42,180 I think they around Jackson Mississippi 319 00:13:47,180 --> 00:13:45,389 or so and the two pilots noticing 320 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:47,190 glowing red light that seems to be 321 00:13:50,780 --> 00:13:48,690 heading towards them and at first they 322 00:13:53,269 --> 00:13:50,790 think it's an experimental aircraft jet 323 00:13:55,819 --> 00:13:53,279 because remember jet point this is 1949 324 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:55,829 jet aircraft were not very common at 325 00:13:59,629 --> 00:13:57,930 this point rain so they assumed it was 326 00:14:01,639 --> 00:13:59,639 an experimental jet aircraft from the 327 00:14:07,490 --> 00:14:01,649 military well then it gets closer and 328 00:14:10,670 --> 00:14:07,500 it's actually a tubular object a rocket 329 00:14:12,770 --> 00:14:10,680 with no wings no apparent wings two rows 330 00:14:15,530 --> 00:14:12,780 of glowing lights along the fuselage a 331 00:14:18,350 --> 00:14:15,540 blue glow along to along lower heads in 332 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:18,360 a giant 50-foot red and orange flame 333 00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:22,050 shooting caught up its tail and as it 334 00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:24,540 approaches the aircraft it seems to make 335 00:14:31,390 --> 00:14:28,110 a conscious maneuver to its left to 336 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:31,400 avoid a collision with with the airliner 337 00:14:38,420 --> 00:14:35,250 and it zooms past the plane and then and 338 00:14:40,070 --> 00:14:38,430 then veers up into the clouds and no for 339 00:14:42,020 --> 00:14:40,080 years and years that was all I ever knew 340 00:14:44,090 --> 00:14:42,030 about the case but when I started 341 00:14:46,940 --> 00:14:44,100 researching it for my book I came across 342 00:14:49,340 --> 00:14:46,950 this very interesting story that also 343 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:49,350 fits into this and that is that a ground 344 00:14:56,420 --> 00:14:53,250 crew guy from an Air Force Base in Macon 345 00:14:59,860 --> 00:14:56,430 Georgia saw the exact same thing from 346 00:15:02,390 --> 00:14:59,870 the ground and exactly an hour before 347 00:15:06,110 --> 00:15:02,400 the pilots of that Eastern Airlines 348 00:15:07,490 --> 00:15:06,120 flight saw this wing so all of a sudden 349 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:07,500 you've got this incredibly complicated 350 00:15:12,740 --> 00:15:10,650 situation because the guy the guy on the 351 00:15:14,660 --> 00:15:12,750 ground in Georgia sees this wingless 352 00:15:17,570 --> 00:15:14,670 rocket with a giant flame shooting out 353 00:15:20,390 --> 00:15:17,580 at them flying away to the northwest an 354 00:15:23,180 --> 00:15:20,400 hour later it's seen by these airline 355 00:15:25,580 --> 00:15:23,190 pilots over Mississippi but that means 356 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:25,590 that the flying object is it was only 357 00:15:32,060 --> 00:15:29,490 one object crossed from the eastern time 358 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:32,070 zone into the central time zone and so 359 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:33,570 all of a sudden the timing of these 360 00:15:37,250 --> 00:15:35,250 events becomes very hard to trace 361 00:15:39,140 --> 00:15:37,260 because Hynek and the Air Force 362 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:39,150 investigators weren't really we're never 363 00:15:44,450 --> 00:15:41,250 really sure if everyone was recording 364 00:15:46,220 --> 00:15:44,460 the time in their own time zone or if 365 00:15:48,650 --> 00:15:46,230 they were all reporting in in central 366 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:48,660 time zone and if they were figuring in 367 00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:51,570 daylight savings time which was still a 368 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:54,000 fairly new thing at the time so all of a 369 00:15:57,830 --> 00:15:55,530 sudden you've got this situation where 370 00:16:00,770 --> 00:15:57,840 you have not just the witnesses on the 371 00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:00,780 airplane but a witness on the ground who 372 00:16:05,390 --> 00:16:03,360 saw this apparently the same thing and 373 00:16:07,730 --> 00:16:05,400 depending on how you look at the timing 374 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:07,740 the sightings either took place an hour 375 00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:09,770 apart or two hours apart or 376 00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:12,480 instantaneously and you could never 377 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:14,310 really figure out which of those it was 378 00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:17,250 it completely vexed him throughout this 379 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:19,680 research another another monkey wrench 380 00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:20,970 was that there was one 381 00:16:25,340 --> 00:16:24,000 passenger in the airliner who you may 382 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:25,350 not have been the only one to see it but 383 00:16:29,660 --> 00:16:26,730 he was the only one who spoke up about 384 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:29,670 it who saw this thing zoom past the 385 00:16:33,559 --> 00:16:31,290 plane in the middle of the night and 386 00:16:36,259 --> 00:16:33,569 then fly up into the cloud he turned out 387 00:16:38,780 --> 00:16:36,269 to be a personal friend of dr. Hynek so 388 00:16:40,699 --> 00:16:38,790 Hynek had some very very reliable 389 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:40,709 witnesses in this case he had the two 390 00:16:45,139 --> 00:16:42,410 eastern airline pilots who were 391 00:16:48,559 --> 00:16:45,149 decorated military pilots very high 392 00:16:52,249 --> 00:16:48,569 credibility yet his friend who was and 393 00:16:54,949 --> 00:16:52,259 then he had another very credible Air 394 00:16:56,869 --> 00:16:54,959 Force professional immigrant in the the 395 00:16:59,179 --> 00:16:56,879 sighting from the ground so put it all 396 00:17:01,309 --> 00:16:59,189 together you've got you've got you know 397 00:17:03,530 --> 00:17:01,319 concurrent sightings of the same object 398 00:17:05,899 --> 00:17:03,540 apparently you've got several witnesses 399 00:17:09,110 --> 00:17:05,909 that are very very qualified observers 400 00:17:10,909 --> 00:17:09,120 and very credible and you've got a real 401 00:17:13,309 --> 00:17:10,919 mystery on your hand this was a really 402 00:17:15,529 --> 00:17:13,319 really tough case for a project planning 403 00:17:17,539 --> 00:17:15,539 to take on and like we mentioned earlier 404 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:17,549 you know the whole idea of project sign 405 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:20,970 essentially was to to debunk these cases 406 00:17:24,799 --> 00:17:22,770 to give a conventional reasoning for 407 00:17:27,169 --> 00:17:24,809 them and this is why they brought in 408 00:17:29,149 --> 00:17:27,179 Hynek when he left Project signmark and 409 00:17:31,010 --> 00:17:29,159 he went back to teaching it was clear 410 00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:31,020 that he wasn't quite done with the Air 411 00:17:36,529 --> 00:17:33,600 Force and he was brought back again to 412 00:17:38,390 --> 00:17:36,539 do a discrete study I had no idea about 413 00:17:40,430 --> 00:17:38,400 this this was really interesting when I 414 00:17:42,740 --> 00:17:40,440 read this in your book and this involved 415 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:42,750 interviewing fellow astronomers could 416 00:17:47,299 --> 00:17:44,610 you tell us a bit about this project 417 00:17:49,850 --> 00:17:47,309 well by this time project sign had 418 00:17:52,430 --> 00:17:49,860 evolved into project rugs which in turn 419 00:17:54,049 --> 00:17:52,440 evolved into project Bluebook which is 420 00:17:56,830 --> 00:17:54,059 probably the one most people are 421 00:17:59,870 --> 00:17:56,840 familiar with and so project Bluebook 422 00:18:03,049 --> 00:17:59,880 contracted with the cell Memorial 423 00:18:06,380 --> 00:18:03,059 Institute a technology consulting firm 424 00:18:10,190 --> 00:18:06,390 in Ohio to help continue with their 425 00:18:14,419 --> 00:18:10,200 study of UFO sightings the till ended up 426 00:18:17,330 --> 00:18:14,429 hiring Hynek to go out and do us do a 427 00:18:19,039 --> 00:18:17,340 sort of a a Slough thing do some 428 00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:19,049 sleuthing among his profession his 429 00:18:22,899 --> 00:18:21,240 fellow professional astronomers they 430 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:22,909 just send him out to do sort of a 431 00:18:27,620 --> 00:18:25,530 informal anonymous poll of his 432 00:18:30,950 --> 00:18:27,630 colleagues and try to find out how many 433 00:18:33,350 --> 00:18:30,960 of them a had ever seen a UFO and and be 434 00:18:34,430 --> 00:18:33,360 we're willing to talk about it so 435 00:18:37,369 --> 00:18:34,440 there's two levels 436 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:37,379 here is not just who has seen one it's 437 00:18:40,820 --> 00:18:39,450 who has seen one and is willing to go 438 00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:40,830 out on a limb and speak about it 439 00:18:46,610 --> 00:18:43,200 publicly and what he found out after 440 00:18:49,009 --> 00:18:46,620 interviewing about 45 or 50 astronomers 441 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:49,019 over the course of a few months what he 442 00:18:53,899 --> 00:18:51,330 found was that about 11% of the 443 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:53,909 astronomers had seen something that they 444 00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:56,250 would they would classify as a UFO 445 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:00,240 something that was very real to them but 446 00:19:04,909 --> 00:19:02,129 they could not explain in any sort of 447 00:19:08,210 --> 00:19:04,919 normal physical or astronomical terms so 448 00:19:10,159 --> 00:19:08,220 that's about 11% is a pretty high 449 00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:10,169 percentage Hynek was very surprised to 450 00:19:14,779 --> 00:19:13,200 find that that many scientists had seen 451 00:19:17,299 --> 00:19:14,789 something and we're willing to admit it 452 00:19:19,039 --> 00:19:17,309 to him and you know it in a way it makes 453 00:19:21,499 --> 00:19:19,049 sense because of course astronomers are 454 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:21,509 always looking up at the sky and when 455 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:23,970 they are laid over the sky they know 456 00:19:30,139 --> 00:19:27,090 instantly when something does not belong 457 00:19:31,999 --> 00:19:30,149 in the sky so you know that sort of 458 00:19:34,159 --> 00:19:32,009 makes them the world's most perfect UFO 459 00:19:35,779 --> 00:19:34,169 witnesses so it was kind of a big deal 460 00:19:38,930 --> 00:19:35,789 for hunting to discover that so many of 461 00:19:40,999 --> 00:19:38,940 them and seen UFOs another element of 462 00:19:43,580 --> 00:19:41,009 that though was that he also found it I 463 00:19:45,769 --> 00:19:43,590 think that percentage was around a third 464 00:19:48,289 --> 00:19:45,779 around a third of the astronomers he 465 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:48,299 told even if they wouldn't admit to 466 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:50,370 having seen UFOs there never had seen 467 00:19:56,659 --> 00:19:53,970 UFOs were willing to say that they would 468 00:19:58,460 --> 00:19:56,669 be willing to study the problem if the 469 00:20:00,019 --> 00:19:58,470 right opportunity presented itself so 470 00:20:01,639 --> 00:20:00,029 that was another big thing too just the 471 00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:01,649 fact that there were other scientists 472 00:20:06,529 --> 00:20:04,110 whose curiosity even had been piqued 473 00:20:08,779 --> 00:20:06,539 just enough that they would say sure I 474 00:20:11,149 --> 00:20:08,789 would take a look at this you mentioned 475 00:20:14,269 --> 00:20:11,159 project grudge mark and this eventually 476 00:20:17,180 --> 00:20:14,279 began to dwindle into sort of a one-man 477 00:20:21,049 --> 00:20:17,190 show when Edward group elf picked up the 478 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:21,059 pieces and again grudge seemed to be you 479 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:24,690 know the real stamp down of we are going 480 00:20:28,460 --> 00:20:26,730 to find conventional reason for every 481 00:20:30,710 --> 00:20:28,470 single one of these cases that are being 482 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:30,720 reported but without really caught my 483 00:20:35,060 --> 00:20:32,370 attention in terms of your book he 484 00:20:37,490 --> 00:20:35,070 seemed to sort of rise from the ashes to 485 00:20:40,430 --> 00:20:37,500 revive this entire government-funded 486 00:20:41,899 --> 00:20:40,440 project on studying UFOs involving Hynek 487 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:41,909 so can you give us a little background 488 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:44,490 on who repelled was and how he he 489 00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:46,710 ultimately began what we all know the 490 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:47,110 most 491 00:20:51,180 --> 00:20:48,970 famous government-funded project in that 492 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:51,190 was project Bluebook yeah he's kind of a 493 00:20:56,370 --> 00:20:53,650 hero to me actually after after writing 494 00:21:00,270 --> 00:20:56,380 this book and it was so many moments in 495 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:00,280 the story of UFOs sort of rely on this 496 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:03,130 sort of weird mystical chance that sort 497 00:21:06,210 --> 00:21:04,570 of brings different people or different 498 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:06,220 elements together it's just the right 499 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:08,170 time to create some sort of new 500 00:21:12,210 --> 00:21:10,210 understanding and I think that's what 501 00:21:14,669 --> 00:21:12,220 happened with the fruit health and Hynek 502 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:14,679 Hynek had already been involved with the 503 00:21:20,010 --> 00:21:16,770 Air Force with project sign which 504 00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:20,020 towards the end was here leaning very 505 00:21:24,780 --> 00:21:22,049 heavily towards the extra-terrestrial 506 00:21:27,810 --> 00:21:24,790 hypothesis right before it was quickly 507 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:27,820 disbanded before they went too far down 508 00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:31,210 that road with budget grudge and grudges 509 00:21:35,340 --> 00:21:33,520 mandate was basically to make the UFOs 510 00:21:38,549 --> 00:21:35,350 go away for good 511 00:21:41,340 --> 00:21:38,559 so repel comes in at the tail end of 512 00:21:43,169 --> 00:21:41,350 project grudge and takes a new approach 513 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:43,179 he says you know what we're not going to 514 00:21:48,150 --> 00:21:46,210 lean in any direction we are going to be 515 00:21:49,710 --> 00:21:48,160 as unbiased as we possibly can 516 00:21:52,409 --> 00:21:49,720 we're going to be as scientific as we 517 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:52,419 possibly can and if anybody on my staff 518 00:21:56,460 --> 00:21:54,730 starts talking about how they believe in 519 00:21:59,010 --> 00:21:56,470 aliens they're going to get transferred 520 00:22:00,480 --> 00:21:59,020 and if anybody on my staff alternately 521 00:22:02,460 --> 00:22:00,490 starts saying that they think you 522 00:22:04,620 --> 00:22:02,470 opposed our mass hallucination they are 523 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:04,630 also going to get transferred I don't he 524 00:22:10,140 --> 00:22:06,850 did not want any of any of that sort of 525 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:10,150 thinking on his team which no first time 526 00:22:14,940 --> 00:22:13,450 was kind of revolutionary so and it was 527 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:14,950 about that time that he started working 528 00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:16,330 with Hynek because Hynek had been 529 00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:18,640 brought back in at the in the early days 530 00:22:23,340 --> 00:22:20,559 of blue book by Revell by the way who 531 00:22:25,020 --> 00:22:23,350 was very impressed with Hynek so the two 532 00:22:27,180 --> 00:22:25,030 of them developed they worked closely 533 00:22:30,030 --> 00:22:27,190 for several years and they did they 534 00:22:32,510 --> 00:22:30,040 developed a sort of uh I would say a 535 00:22:35,010 --> 00:22:32,520 grudging mutual respect they never 536 00:22:37,409 --> 00:22:35,020 completely trusted each other because 537 00:22:40,260 --> 00:22:37,419 there was always a recognition that they 538 00:22:41,580 --> 00:22:40,270 were serving different masters rappelled 539 00:22:44,669 --> 00:22:41,590 was serving the Air Force and the 540 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:44,679 Pentagon Hynek was serving science and 541 00:22:52,020 --> 00:22:48,370 public opinion so you know they never 542 00:22:55,260 --> 00:22:52,030 quite completely bonded but there was 543 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:55,270 enough mutual respect there that they 544 00:22:58,169 --> 00:22:57,250 actually were able to do quite a bit of 545 00:23:00,169 --> 00:22:58,179 good work 546 00:23:03,029 --> 00:23:00,179 do some really really interesting 547 00:23:05,789 --> 00:23:03,039 investigations and it was repelled in 548 00:23:07,950 --> 00:23:05,799 the end whoo this is business a major 549 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:07,960 point I want to bring up in the early 550 00:23:11,850 --> 00:23:10,330 days all Hynek ever did was he would sit 551 00:23:15,570 --> 00:23:11,860 at a desk and he would look at these 552 00:23:17,580 --> 00:23:15,580 printouts of UFO reports and he would 553 00:23:19,889 --> 00:23:17,590 read the narratives and he would say oh 554 00:23:22,499 --> 00:23:19,899 well that was obviously Venus that was 555 00:23:25,289 --> 00:23:22,509 obviously a comment that was obviously a 556 00:23:27,930 --> 00:23:25,299 meteor and that was all he did under 557 00:23:30,539 --> 00:23:27,940 root cults leadership Hynek was actually 558 00:23:33,419 --> 00:23:30,549 sent out in the field to do his own 559 00:23:36,060 --> 00:23:33,429 first field investigation this was a 560 00:23:40,590 --> 00:23:36,070 mass sighting in South Dakota in North 561 00:23:42,239 --> 00:23:40,600 Dakota and and and Hynek did I think did 562 00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:42,249 a really good job investigating a very 563 00:23:47,970 --> 00:23:44,830 puzzling case and it only happened 564 00:23:49,499 --> 00:23:47,980 because rappelled said repel is actually 565 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:49,509 on his way out at that time he was 566 00:23:54,180 --> 00:23:51,970 retiring from the military and this was 567 00:23:56,310 --> 00:23:54,190 the last case that he investigated but 568 00:23:58,529 --> 00:23:56,320 in his in the conclusion of his 569 00:24:00,359 --> 00:23:58,539 investigation he said I think dr. Hynek 570 00:24:01,919 --> 00:24:00,369 should be sent out to South Dakota in 571 00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:01,929 North Dakota I think he should look into 572 00:24:06,570 --> 00:24:04,720 this as well so that moment started this 573 00:24:08,190 --> 00:24:06,580 whole new chapter in hynek's career 574 00:24:10,609 --> 00:24:08,200 where he was not just sitting behind a 575 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:10,619 desk but going out in the field 576 00:24:16,409 --> 00:24:13,330 investigating these UFO incidents on the 577 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:16,419 scene meeting face to face with the 578 00:24:21,419 --> 00:24:19,090 witnesses which is a huge huge deal and 579 00:24:23,789 --> 00:24:21,429 it was a gigantic step in his 580 00:24:26,220 --> 00:24:23,799 transformation as a UFO researcher 581 00:24:27,149 --> 00:24:26,230 absolutely and you know and then we see 582 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:27,159 hynix 583 00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:29,110 sort of feelings on the entire topic 584 00:24:33,690 --> 00:24:32,289 start to sway start to ebb and flow when 585 00:24:36,090 --> 00:24:33,700 speaking face-to-face with these people 586 00:24:38,609 --> 00:24:36,100 I mean it's one thing to see it on paper 587 00:24:40,529 --> 00:24:38,619 but then to go and actually boots on the 588 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:40,539 ground do it more come I'm sure you know 589 00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:42,730 as a as a MUFON investigator like that 590 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:44,830 that that's when you really start to 591 00:24:49,710 --> 00:24:46,690 think there's something to all this and 592 00:24:51,899 --> 00:24:49,720 the same could be said for Hynek and I 593 00:24:53,279 --> 00:24:51,909 mean one of those cases where he was out 594 00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:53,289 there in the field actually 595 00:24:59,700 --> 00:24:55,360 investigating was the Socorro New Mexico 596 00:25:01,470 --> 00:24:59,710 case now this is a pivotal case for UFO 597 00:25:03,149 --> 00:25:01,480 buffs out there but for those who may 598 00:25:05,039 --> 00:25:03,159 not know about it could he tell us a 599 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:05,049 little about this case and how Hynek 600 00:25:10,769 --> 00:25:07,690 considered it the rosetta stone as it 601 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:10,779 were sure another one of my favorite 602 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:11,330 cases 603 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:14,090 involves a traffic cop named Lonnie 604 00:25:21,850 --> 00:25:18,410 Zamora in the town of Socorro New Mexico 605 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:21,860 which just happens to be pretty much a 606 00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:24,890 stone's throw away from Holloman Air 607 00:25:27,970 --> 00:25:27,200 Force Base and the White Sands Missile 608 00:25:30,250 --> 00:25:27,980 Grounds 609 00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:30,260 okay two places places where a lot of 610 00:25:35,260 --> 00:25:32,720 experimental military hardware is 611 00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:35,270 developed and tested so with that as a 612 00:25:40,180 --> 00:25:37,910 background Lonnie Zamora was just 613 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:40,190 finishing up his shift when he spotted 614 00:25:44,620 --> 00:25:42,770 the speeder going through town so he 615 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:44,630 takes off after the speeder it's just 616 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:46,610 about to catch up with the car and he 617 00:25:51,490 --> 00:25:49,610 hears a loud boom coming off from the 618 00:25:55,330 --> 00:25:51,500 side of the highway and you see the 619 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:55,340 cloud of cloud of smoke coming from from 620 00:26:00,010 --> 00:25:57,650 where the boom is and he he knows that 621 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:00,020 there is a dynamite check over in these 622 00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:02,090 hills in this print and he's afraid that 623 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:05,600 the dynamite check blown itself up so he 624 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:07,490 veers off the highway drives up drives 625 00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:09,410 off on a gravel road into this rocky 626 00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:13,520 rocky hilly area and he spots what he 627 00:26:19,570 --> 00:26:16,190 first thinks is an overturned car he 628 00:26:24,010 --> 00:26:19,580 thinks some people drove their car off 629 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:24,020 the ridge of this hill and rolled it 630 00:26:28,330 --> 00:26:25,970 down into this Arroyo down beneath and 631 00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:28,340 he sees two people outside this vehicle 632 00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:31,130 and they're both kind of short because 633 00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:32,480 he can compare them to the nearby 634 00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:34,910 shrubbery they appear to be either large 635 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:37,760 children or small adult men and they're 636 00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:40,250 wearing white coveralls well he loses 637 00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:41,600 sight of them for a minute while he 638 00:26:46,870 --> 00:26:43,310 drives his car closer and then he sees 639 00:26:49,630 --> 00:26:46,880 him again and at this point the two the 640 00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:49,640 two people in the white coveralls one of 641 00:26:53,740 --> 00:26:51,200 them turns and notices and Loras 642 00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:53,750 approaching patrol car and sort of jumps 643 00:26:58,480 --> 00:26:56,510 as it's startled and then Zamora Parkes 644 00:27:00,610 --> 00:26:58,490 and he gets out of his car and see these 645 00:27:03,340 --> 00:27:00,620 guys anymore the men in white cover off 646 00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:03,350 he scrambled down the hill towards this 647 00:27:07,870 --> 00:27:05,840 object and he realizes that it is not an 648 00:27:10,420 --> 00:27:07,880 overturned car it's actually a gigantic 649 00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:10,430 egg-shaped thing it appears to be made 650 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:12,320 of metal like aluminum possibly and 651 00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:15,050 expanding on landing struts and it has a 652 00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:17,510 strange symbol painted on the side well 653 00:27:21,340 --> 00:27:19,520 as he's approaching this thing it starts 654 00:27:23,620 --> 00:27:21,350 to roar and flames shoot out of the 655 00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:23,630 bottom well the more goes running back 656 00:27:28,409 --> 00:27:24,710 up to his SWAT 657 00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:28,419 how to hide as this thing takes off and 658 00:27:36,310 --> 00:27:32,960 zooms across the the sky and disappears 659 00:27:38,889 --> 00:27:36,320 against the horizon and Zamora gets on 660 00:27:41,049 --> 00:27:38,899 the radio and calls in for help and when 661 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:41,059 the next when a state policeman Sam 662 00:27:44,529 --> 00:27:43,490 Chavez shows up he says Zamora is just 663 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:44,539 white as a sheet 664 00:27:49,299 --> 00:27:46,610 looks like he's just seen the devil 665 00:27:51,549 --> 00:27:49,309 seems to be in shock he's just been seen 666 00:27:54,610 --> 00:27:51,559 something that has absolutely unnerved 667 00:27:58,060 --> 00:27:54,620 him it also turns out that a family of 668 00:28:02,649 --> 00:27:58,070 tourists driving through town had seen 669 00:28:04,450 --> 00:28:02,659 the same thing they pulled into a gas 670 00:28:06,159 --> 00:28:04,460 station in Socorro and they said hey 671 00:28:08,019 --> 00:28:06,169 what if you got flying around here and 672 00:28:09,279 --> 00:28:08,029 the gas station guy says well what do 673 00:28:10,810 --> 00:28:09,289 you mean you know we're close to a 674 00:28:13,690 --> 00:28:10,820 military bases so there are always a lot 675 00:28:15,399 --> 00:28:13,700 of helicopters around and the guy says 676 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:15,409 no this wasn't a helicopter this was 677 00:28:18,490 --> 00:28:17,090 some weird thing that buzzed our station 678 00:28:21,250 --> 00:28:18,500 wagon just a minute ago as we were 679 00:28:23,110 --> 00:28:21,260 driving into town and he says then just 680 00:28:24,940 --> 00:28:23,120 after we saw it we saw one of your local 681 00:28:26,740 --> 00:28:24,950 police cars go drivin off the highway 682 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:26,750 onto this gravel road so they saw the 683 00:28:32,830 --> 00:28:29,210 Mora actually responding to the blast 684 00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:32,840 that he had heard so um so you've got 685 00:28:36,490 --> 00:28:34,190 this really interesting case where you 686 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:36,500 got this no-nonsense policeman who 687 00:28:43,029 --> 00:28:40,130 according to Hynek was was a very solid 688 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:43,039 citizen not a really imaginative person 689 00:28:48,340 --> 00:28:44,450 not the kind of person you would expect 690 00:28:50,529 --> 00:28:48,350 to fabricate a crazy story about a UFO 691 00:28:52,029 --> 00:28:50,539 and there are these independent 692 00:28:53,919 --> 00:28:52,039 witnesses there are these tourists who 693 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:53,929 who told the gas station attendant that 694 00:28:59,039 --> 00:28:55,370 they had seen the very same thing at the 695 00:29:01,180 --> 00:28:59,049 very same time in the very same place 696 00:29:02,830 --> 00:29:01,190 unfortunately they paid cash for their 697 00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:02,840 gas when they fill up their car so 698 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:06,110 here's nothing new so so I mean there 699 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:07,730 have been searches for these people and 700 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:10,370 I stayed away from that part of the 701 00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:11,690 story because it wasn't really relevant 702 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:15,230 to my narrative but what you got is a 703 00:29:19,899 --> 00:29:17,330 really puzzling account and it attracted 704 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:19,909 a lot of attention and project Bluebook 705 00:29:25,299 --> 00:29:23,690 sent Hynek to Socorro very quickly he 706 00:29:28,060 --> 00:29:25,309 said he needed to sort of squash it down 707 00:29:29,980 --> 00:29:28,070 before it became a legend and he met 708 00:29:35,049 --> 00:29:29,990 with some morons very impressed with 709 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:35,059 again how how very matter-of-fact Zamora 710 00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:37,250 was he did not embellish his story his 711 00:29:40,180 --> 00:29:38,240 story remained 712 00:29:43,690 --> 00:29:40,190 actly the same with every telling he was 713 00:29:45,970 --> 00:29:43,700 he was clearly confused and disturbed by 714 00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:45,980 what he had seen but he was also really 715 00:29:50,530 --> 00:29:48,320 upset because he wasn't going to hand 716 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:50,540 out his quota of speeding ticket because 717 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:53,510 that was where Titanic took us an 718 00:29:57,250 --> 00:29:55,010 interesting clue that this guy's 719 00:30:00,460 --> 00:29:57,260 personality is like why would he be 720 00:30:01,510 --> 00:30:00,470 making this thing up if he really just 721 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:01,520 wants to be out there handing out 722 00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:03,530 speeding tickets just cotton and rose to 723 00:30:08,530 --> 00:30:05,510 that I thought was kind of funny so this 724 00:30:10,510 --> 00:30:08,540 case has been studied and analyzed a lot 725 00:30:14,169 --> 00:30:10,520 of people suggested that this object 726 00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:14,179 that Samara saw was maybe a prototype of 727 00:30:18,940 --> 00:30:17,360 NASA's lunar excursion module which was 728 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:18,950 being tested for the moon flex the 729 00:30:22,900 --> 00:30:20,330 Apollo moon flights later on in the 730 00:30:24,580 --> 00:30:22,910 1960s so that was a possibility that a 731 00:30:26,380 --> 00:30:24,590 lot of people pointed out - it's never 732 00:30:28,390 --> 00:30:26,390 been proven the Air Force has always 733 00:30:29,799 --> 00:30:28,400 denied that that was the case but 734 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:29,809 nobody's ever come up with an 735 00:30:35,169 --> 00:30:31,610 explanation for the case it remains a 736 00:30:36,340 --> 00:30:35,179 really intriguing unknown and like Hynek 737 00:30:38,260 --> 00:30:36,350 said it's kind of the rosetta stone 738 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:38,270 because they've had all the perfect 739 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:40,250 elements all the elements of a perfect 740 00:30:47,290 --> 00:30:44,090 UFO situation right and I mean you know 741 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:47,300 human occupants are non-human it also 742 00:30:52,830 --> 00:30:49,690 sort of ushered in this whole new 743 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:52,840 classification system that Hynek himself 744 00:30:58,720 --> 00:30:56,450 created and this bleeds sort of into the 745 00:31:01,510 --> 00:30:58,730 title of your book and his involvement 746 00:31:02,980 --> 00:31:01,520 with another big project but could you 747 00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:02,990 tell us a little mark about this 748 00:31:07,030 --> 00:31:04,880 classification system that Hynek 749 00:31:11,650 --> 00:31:07,040 ultimately came up with while working on 750 00:31:13,990 --> 00:31:11,660 blue book sure he his classification 751 00:31:17,380 --> 00:31:14,000 system actually went through several 752 00:31:19,060 --> 00:31:17,390 different permutations over time because 753 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:19,070 he was constantly trying to think 754 00:31:24,190 --> 00:31:22,010 through the UFO problem and think of the 755 00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:24,200 best approach and of course he's a 756 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:26,480 scientist scientist elected categorized 757 00:31:31,180 --> 00:31:29,090 things so it made sense to him if he 758 00:31:33,460 --> 00:31:31,190 should try to categorize UFO sightings 759 00:31:35,169 --> 00:31:33,470 in the first system he came up with and 760 00:31:36,190 --> 00:31:35,179 he actually described it first in an 761 00:31:39,790 --> 00:31:36,200 article that appeared in Playboy 762 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:39,800 magazine of all fighting ring label 763 00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:41,450 the readers of playboy loved reading 764 00:31:48,250 --> 00:31:44,960 about flying saucers I don't know why 765 00:31:50,650 --> 00:31:48,260 but so idak does this story for Playboy 766 00:31:51,820 --> 00:31:50,660 magazine in the late 60s and he starts 767 00:31:54,730 --> 00:31:51,830 talking about 768 00:31:59,289 --> 00:31:54,740 he sees that you could categorize UFO 769 00:32:02,649 --> 00:31:59,299 sightings according to the strangeness 770 00:32:04,769 --> 00:32:02,659 of a situation in other words is a visit 771 00:32:09,070 --> 00:32:04,779 an event that can be explained by 772 00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:09,080 physical laws and the number two factor 773 00:32:15,730 --> 00:32:13,279 is the credibility of the witness is the 774 00:32:18,850 --> 00:32:15,740 witness someone who is a solid citizen 775 00:32:20,649 --> 00:32:18,860 good observer someone who can be counted 776 00:32:23,409 --> 00:32:20,659 on to give an honest telling of their 777 00:32:24,789 --> 00:32:23,419 experience and he thought that he 778 00:32:26,529 --> 00:32:24,799 thought that if you could group together 779 00:32:28,210 --> 00:32:26,539 if you could if you could group together 780 00:32:30,789 --> 00:32:28,220 some sightings that had a high 781 00:32:33,820 --> 00:32:30,799 strangeness factor and a high 782 00:32:35,649 --> 00:32:33,830 credibility factor for the witness that 783 00:32:37,899 --> 00:32:35,659 those were the cases that you should 784 00:32:40,389 --> 00:32:37,909 focus on that so that became his first 785 00:32:43,869 --> 00:32:40,399 approach over time he sort of developed 786 00:32:46,450 --> 00:32:43,879 that he expanded that into three very 787 00:32:49,769 --> 00:32:46,460 simple categories of UFOs and those were 788 00:32:51,489 --> 00:32:49,779 number one the day like discs which 789 00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:51,499 determines fairly obvious 790 00:32:56,859 --> 00:32:53,840 self-explanatory mean the second 791 00:33:00,220 --> 00:32:56,869 category was meandering nocturnal lights 792 00:33:02,230 --> 00:33:00,230 and if you've been sending UFOs for a 793 00:33:05,529 --> 00:33:02,240 while you know that the vast majority of 794 00:33:08,169 --> 00:33:05,539 sightings are meandering nocturnal light 795 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:08,179 his third category was visual and radar 796 00:33:13,419 --> 00:33:10,570 sightings and those were sightings where 797 00:33:15,850 --> 00:33:13,429 you know obviously a visual sighting of 798 00:33:19,899 --> 00:33:15,860 the UFO was backed up and confirmed by a 799 00:33:21,999 --> 00:33:19,909 radar reading confirming that the 800 00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:22,009 presence of a solid object and its 801 00:33:27,039 --> 00:33:24,710 movement and those were very very 802 00:33:29,399 --> 00:33:27,049 intriguing cases behind me so so that 803 00:33:32,710 --> 00:33:29,409 was his first group of three categories 804 00:33:34,629 --> 00:33:32,720 later on he expanded that and he added 805 00:33:35,919 --> 00:33:34,639 the close encounter categories that's 806 00:33:38,769 --> 00:33:35,929 what people are most familiar with 807 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:38,779 obviously from from the movie and from 808 00:33:44,649 --> 00:33:40,970 that that terms used in common parlance 809 00:33:48,269 --> 00:33:44,659 in our language today the close 810 00:33:51,489 --> 00:33:48,279 encounter of the first kind involve 811 00:33:55,779 --> 00:33:51,499 visual contact with an unusual object in 812 00:33:58,570 --> 00:33:55,789 the sky that was within 500 yards he 813 00:34:00,190 --> 00:33:58,580 figured that was a close enough that was 814 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:00,200 a close enough measure that you could 815 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:03,210 make out a visual detail on the US 816 00:34:08,810 --> 00:34:05,610 a close encounter of the second kind 817 00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:08,820 involved the UFO leaving behind physical 818 00:34:14,180 --> 00:34:11,040 traces and that could be anything from 819 00:34:16,329 --> 00:34:14,190 scorch marks which the UFO and Lonnie 820 00:34:20,329 --> 00:34:16,339 Zamora skates left behind 821 00:34:23,359 --> 00:34:20,339 scorched burned brush landing landing 822 00:34:25,460 --> 00:34:23,369 gear imprints in the ground that could 823 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:25,470 also include ultraviolent burns to the 824 00:34:30,530 --> 00:34:27,690 witness's eyes it could involve the 825 00:34:32,149 --> 00:34:30,540 witness's car engines shutting off and 826 00:34:33,109 --> 00:34:32,159 it's like shutting off in the presence 827 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:33,119 of the UFO 828 00:34:37,070 --> 00:34:35,010 so that was a close encounter the second 829 00:34:38,540 --> 00:34:37,080 time those those cases most intrigue 830 00:34:40,609 --> 00:34:38,550 Hynek because he thought that they had 831 00:34:42,020 --> 00:34:40,619 the most scientific value and except 832 00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:42,030 that they had the highest chance of 833 00:34:46,070 --> 00:34:44,310 actually proving something about the UFO 834 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:46,080 phenomena and then of course the Close 835 00:34:51,859 --> 00:34:48,770 Encounters of the Third Kind involves 836 00:34:56,359 --> 00:34:51,869 sighting and possible interaction with a 837 00:34:59,120 --> 00:34:56,369 being that emerges from the UFO or is 838 00:35:01,520 --> 00:34:59,130 seen in close proximity with the UFO so 839 00:35:04,030 --> 00:35:01,530 those are the three iconic categories 840 00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:04,040 that that everyone knows so well today 841 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:08,160 right and I mean it we couldn't know it 842 00:35:13,450 --> 00:35:10,770 any better than when it came to us in 843 00:35:16,010 --> 00:35:13,460 the form of Steven Spielberg's film and 844 00:35:18,020 --> 00:35:16,020 obviously Hynek had to be involved with 845 00:35:20,260 --> 00:35:18,030 this somehow so this is a really 846 00:35:23,810 --> 00:35:20,270 interesting part of the book one of the 847 00:35:25,910 --> 00:35:23,820 more pop culture ask aspects of hynek's 848 00:35:27,620 --> 00:35:25,920 entire career so Kiki tell us a little 849 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:27,630 about how Hynek got involved with 850 00:35:33,770 --> 00:35:31,530 Spielberg's film arc sure this is my 851 00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:33,780 discovery of this story came about while 852 00:35:39,770 --> 00:35:36,510 I was rooting through those decrepit 853 00:35:42,230 --> 00:35:39,780 things those decrepit file cabinets we 854 00:35:45,230 --> 00:35:42,240 mark erotic escapes mean even at the 855 00:35:48,109 --> 00:35:45,240 Center for UFO studies I found a manila 856 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:48,119 folder labeled Spielberg and I'm a 857 00:35:53,750 --> 00:35:51,330 screenwriter and film buff and a huge 858 00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:53,760 admirer Steven Spielberg so course I 859 00:35:57,140 --> 00:35:55,920 grabbed that envelope and flipped it 860 00:35:59,540 --> 00:35:57,150 open to see what was in it it was a 861 00:36:01,220 --> 00:35:59,550 fairly thin envelope as I recall 862 00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:01,230 compared to some of the other envelopes 863 00:36:05,030 --> 00:36:02,510 in those files 864 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:05,040 but there was one letter in particular 865 00:36:10,579 --> 00:36:07,050 that really jumped out at me and it was 866 00:36:12,290 --> 00:36:10,589 this painfully awkward letter that J 867 00:36:15,530 --> 00:36:12,300 Allen Hynek had written to Steven 868 00:36:17,220 --> 00:36:15,540 Spielberg to very politely point out 869 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:17,230 that his new movie 870 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:20,730 founders of the third kind had actually 871 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:26,410 stolen its title kinda sorta from a book 872 00:36:30,359 --> 00:36:28,930 that Hynek had written in 1972 called 873 00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:30,369 the UFO experience 874 00:36:36,660 --> 00:36:33,040 so in this letter hiding very gently and 875 00:36:39,030 --> 00:36:36,670 politely coincidence Tilburg that hey 876 00:36:41,250 --> 00:36:39,040 the term Close Encounters of the Third 877 00:36:45,060 --> 00:36:41,260 Kind is actually my intellectual 878 00:36:46,950 --> 00:36:45,070 property so and then he mentioned that 879 00:36:48,690 --> 00:36:46,960 he's going to be in Los Angeles soon and 880 00:36:50,430 --> 00:36:48,700 he says you know maybe the two of us can 881 00:36:53,099 --> 00:36:50,440 get together and talk while I'm in town 882 00:36:55,290 --> 00:36:53,109 so I'm staring at this letter that Hynek 883 00:36:58,710 --> 00:36:55,300 has written to Steven Spielberg and my 884 00:37:01,290 --> 00:36:58,720 jaw is on the floor because I feel like 885 00:37:04,349 --> 00:37:01,300 this is a this is such a fascinating 886 00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:04,359 little moment in history that I'm 887 00:37:08,130 --> 00:37:06,250 holding in my hands and it's real 888 00:37:10,140 --> 00:37:08,140 because I'm holding it in my hands and 889 00:37:12,180 --> 00:37:10,150 that's those are the kind of amazing 890 00:37:14,370 --> 00:37:12,190 discoveries I've made over and over here 891 00:37:16,220 --> 00:37:14,380 and researching this book but so I 892 00:37:19,620 --> 00:37:16,230 started digging into that story and 893 00:37:21,330 --> 00:37:19,630 discovered that when heineken Spielberg 894 00:37:25,230 --> 00:37:21,340 did actually meet they were able to sort 895 00:37:27,810 --> 00:37:25,240 things out very chemically as a fan of 896 00:37:29,849 --> 00:37:27,820 the book both men got what they wanted 897 00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:29,859 Spielberg was able to use the set of 898 00:37:33,830 --> 00:37:31,510 Close Encounters of the Third Kind in 899 00:37:38,910 --> 00:37:33,840 his movie he hired Hynek to be his 900 00:37:41,220 --> 00:37:38,920 technical adviser a lot of the incidents 901 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:41,230 in the movie were inspired by stories 902 00:37:45,540 --> 00:37:43,450 that Hynek had told in that book mobile 903 00:37:47,490 --> 00:37:45,550 experience so hynix 904 00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:47,500 my next fingerprints are actually all 905 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:50,710 over that movie and in fact it towards 906 00:37:55,590 --> 00:37:52,810 the climax of the movie at the Dark Side 907 00:37:57,620 --> 00:37:55,600 of the Moon UFO landing base at the 908 00:38:00,240 --> 00:37:57,630 bottom of Devil's Tower 909 00:38:02,790 --> 00:38:00,250 Hynek has a cameo appearance in the 910 00:38:05,550 --> 00:38:02,800 movie he has a using a shot that lasts 911 00:38:07,650 --> 00:38:05,560 about six seconds the alien mothership 912 00:38:09,870 --> 00:38:07,660 has appeared everyone is just an awe 913 00:38:12,210 --> 00:38:09,880 they're all phases in this glowing light 914 00:38:13,859 --> 00:38:12,220 coming from the mothership and they cut 915 00:38:16,050 --> 00:38:13,869 to a quick shot of this 916 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:16,060 scientist he's like the only person in 917 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:17,530 the scene who wasn't wearing a white 918 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:21,130 white overall mm-hmm so he's just he's 919 00:38:26,250 --> 00:38:23,170 this very proper Soria looking guy with 920 00:38:28,890 --> 00:38:26,260 a goatee and glasses and a pipe attendee 921 00:38:30,780 --> 00:38:28,900 while all these scientists are sort of 922 00:38:32,820 --> 00:38:30,790 hanging back and staying away from 923 00:38:35,970 --> 00:38:32,830 the mothership Hynek is actually 924 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:35,980 stepping towards it fiddling with his 925 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:38,050 pipe and sticking it in his mouth and so 926 00:38:42,780 --> 00:38:40,330 he he has this moment in the film where 927 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:42,790 he alone is approaching the mothership 928 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:45,490 which to me was fairly significant it 929 00:38:49,380 --> 00:38:47,050 was kind of an acknowledgment I think 930 00:38:52,230 --> 00:38:49,390 I'm Steven Spielberg's part that Hynek 931 00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:52,240 really was a leader maybe the leader in 932 00:38:56,190 --> 00:38:53,920 this field and he had really shown the 933 00:38:57,990 --> 00:38:56,200 way so I think it's a pretty neat moment 934 00:39:00,000 --> 00:38:58,000 in the movie even though it's only six 935 00:39:02,850 --> 00:39:00,010 seconds and in the book of course I tell 936 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:02,860 the story of hi Nick tells the story of 937 00:39:08,970 --> 00:39:05,410 how they actually filmed a lot of scenes 938 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:08,980 that day where the little humanoid 939 00:39:13,830 --> 00:39:11,890 aliens sort of clustered around Hynek 940 00:39:18,300 --> 00:39:13,840 and started fiddling with his pipe and 941 00:39:20,190 --> 00:39:18,310 like hugging his goatee and it sounds 942 00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:20,200 very steep behind it I Nick says it was 943 00:39:24,510 --> 00:39:22,390 all very corny and he's really glad it 944 00:39:27,540 --> 00:39:24,520 didn't get used in the movie but man 945 00:39:31,140 --> 00:39:27,550 someday I would love oh my god yeah give 946 00:39:33,450 --> 00:39:31,150 us the deleted scene that's incredible 947 00:39:35,820 --> 00:39:33,460 well I mean still mark at that point I 948 00:39:37,770 --> 00:39:35,830 mean hi Nick was now you know he was 949 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:37,780 mainstream he was in a Hollywood movie 950 00:39:43,860 --> 00:39:40,810 he was doing interviews all over the 951 00:39:44,310 --> 00:39:43,870 place late-night talk shows he was 952 00:39:47,430 --> 00:39:44,320 everywhere 953 00:39:50,130 --> 00:39:47,440 he was very visible and he was the UFO 954 00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:50,140 guy you know and we know Jacques de la 955 00:39:54,690 --> 00:39:52,510 as well had worked with Spielberg in the 956 00:39:58,110 --> 00:39:54,700 film talked with him consulted with him 957 00:40:00,150 --> 00:39:58,120 and while these two are sort of visible 958 00:40:02,940 --> 00:40:00,160 there were a lot of scientists working 959 00:40:04,650 --> 00:40:02,950 behind the scenes still studying UFOs 960 00:40:06,510 --> 00:40:04,660 and this was something that is sort of 961 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:06,520 been coined is the invisible college 962 00:40:11,460 --> 00:40:08,890 could you could you describe this a 963 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:11,470 little bit for us and what you make of 964 00:40:16,140 --> 00:40:13,690 this entire aspect of scientific 965 00:40:16,950 --> 00:40:16,150 research of UFOs yeah it's a fascinating 966 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:16,960 story 967 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:20,890 it's kind of interesting taste in a case 968 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:24,010 of of beware unintended consequences 969 00:40:31,220 --> 00:40:26,890 because the invisible College came about 970 00:40:35,310 --> 00:40:31,230 at a time when institutional science was 971 00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:35,320 essentially killing ufology once and for 972 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:37,630 all and while they were doing that the 973 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:39,610 invisible College sprung up and kept 974 00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:43,690 ufology alive and in spite of Sciences 975 00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:44,480 best 976 00:40:49,779 --> 00:40:46,609 so it's a very curious story what 977 00:40:52,930 --> 00:40:49,789 happened was long series of events that 978 00:40:58,420 --> 00:40:52,940 started out with the 1966 Michigan swamp 979 00:41:01,750 --> 00:40:58,430 gas case eventually that case led to the 980 00:41:04,269 --> 00:41:01,760 Colorado project which refers to the US 981 00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:04,279 Air Force hired the University of 982 00:41:13,079 --> 00:41:08,319 Colorado gave them a $300,000 grant in 983 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:13,089 1967 to do the final ultimate 984 00:41:22,390 --> 00:41:17,210 authoritative analysis of the UFO 985 00:41:25,839 --> 00:41:22,400 problem and decide number one - UFOs 986 00:41:30,579 --> 00:41:25,849 posed a threat to our country and number 987 00:41:32,559 --> 00:41:30,589 two do they represent any sort of do 988 00:41:34,539 --> 00:41:32,569 they actually represent any sort of 989 00:41:36,010 --> 00:41:34,549 interesting alien technology that we're 990 00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:36,020 not aware of so those were the kinds of 991 00:41:41,769 --> 00:41:37,730 things in Colorado project was looking 992 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:41,779 at and what they did basically was after 993 00:41:49,809 --> 00:41:45,650 after a couple years of very public 994 00:41:53,470 --> 00:41:49,819 infighting and scandal and ferrocene 995 00:41:56,019 --> 00:41:53,480 news leaks the Colorado project finally 996 00:41:58,299 --> 00:41:56,029 came out with a final report that said 997 00:42:00,010 --> 00:41:58,309 no there's nothing to this we all just 998 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:00,020 need to forget about UFOs and move on 999 00:42:05,309 --> 00:42:02,210 and by the way Project Blue Book should 1000 00:42:08,049 --> 00:42:05,319 be tilled as quickly as possible so 1001 00:42:10,450 --> 00:42:08,059 that's exactly what happened under the 1002 00:42:12,940 --> 00:42:10,460 cover of the Colorado projects final 1003 00:42:16,019 --> 00:42:12,950 report the universe was able to 1004 00:42:18,700 --> 00:42:16,029 legitimately shut down Project Blue Book 1005 00:42:20,799 --> 00:42:18,710 because they said well now now we know 1006 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:20,809 that there's no value to this anymore so 1007 00:42:25,390 --> 00:42:22,010 we're just going to kill it 1008 00:42:27,279 --> 00:42:25,400 so Hynek found himself free free of the 1009 00:42:31,839 --> 00:42:27,289 air force's constraints for the first 1010 00:42:33,940 --> 00:42:31,849 time in many many many years and when 1011 00:42:35,859 --> 00:42:33,950 the University of Colorado was picked to 1012 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:35,869 to run this study what happened was 1013 00:42:39,849 --> 00:42:37,010 there were a whole lot of other 1014 00:42:43,359 --> 00:42:39,859 universities that turned down the chance 1015 00:42:45,579 --> 00:42:43,369 to participate in this study but they 1016 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:45,589 had they had faculty they had professors 1017 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:48,010 on their staff they had scientists 1018 00:42:55,019 --> 00:42:51,770 astronomers physicists psychologists 1019 00:42:57,510 --> 00:42:55,029 psychiatrists biologists who were 1020 00:43:00,450 --> 00:42:57,520 secretly interested in 1021 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:00,460 UFO problem but when their universities 1022 00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:02,410 didn't get the grant they were all 1023 00:43:08,730 --> 00:43:06,730 looking for a way to sort of pursue 1024 00:43:11,370 --> 00:43:08,740 these interests in a safe and anonymous 1025 00:43:14,010 --> 00:43:11,380 manner while Hynek gave them that 1026 00:43:16,140 --> 00:43:14,020 opportunity because he said look you 1027 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:16,150 know what Project Blue Book may be dead 1028 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:18,370 but I'm still interested in this topic 1029 00:43:23,610 --> 00:43:21,330 and me and my buddies here in Chicago 1030 00:43:25,620 --> 00:43:23,620 are going to keep moving ahead with our 1031 00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:25,630 own studies and anybody who wants to 1032 00:43:30,830 --> 00:43:28,240 join us is welcome and so what happened 1033 00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:30,840 was a whole lot of these scientists from 1034 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:35,040 universities and scientific research 1035 00:43:40,050 --> 00:43:38,050 research centers not just in the US but 1036 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:40,060 around the world started contacting 1037 00:43:43,620 --> 00:43:41,890 anything I want to be part of this and 1038 00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:43,630 they didn't have any formal structure 1039 00:43:49,020 --> 00:43:45,310 that's why they're the invisible college 1040 00:43:51,090 --> 00:43:49,030 they they would get together when two or 1041 00:43:53,370 --> 00:43:51,100 three of them happen to be attending the 1042 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:53,380 same scientific conference somewhere in 1043 00:43:57,330 --> 00:43:55,570 the world or if two or three of them 1044 00:43:58,830 --> 00:43:57,340 happened to be in Chicago at the same 1045 00:44:01,740 --> 00:43:58,840 time they would all meet at hynek's 1046 00:44:03,570 --> 00:44:01,750 house and talk about talk about their 1047 00:44:05,850 --> 00:44:03,580 research and put their heads together 1048 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:05,860 and try to try to make some progress in 1049 00:44:10,170 --> 00:44:07,690 their research so that's how the 1050 00:44:12,750 --> 00:44:10,180 invisible college came about it was sort 1051 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:12,760 of a retreat for all these establishment 1052 00:44:16,830 --> 00:44:14,770 scientists who were interested in the 1053 00:44:18,860 --> 00:44:16,840 problem but weren't being given the 1054 00:44:21,810 --> 00:44:18,870 opportunity to pursue their interest in 1055 00:44:23,850 --> 00:44:21,820 the within the confines of you know 1056 00:44:26,910 --> 00:44:23,860 traditional scientific establishment and 1057 00:44:27,630 --> 00:44:26,920 academia right and then I mean 1058 00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:27,640 eventually 1059 00:44:32,490 --> 00:44:29,920 Hynek would then form koukos which was 1060 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:32,500 an organization that he started and had 1061 00:44:37,260 --> 00:44:35,290 you know some sort of structure to it so 1062 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:37,270 could you could you tell us where q post 1063 00:44:41,610 --> 00:44:39,850 stands right now mark where it seems 1064 00:44:43,230 --> 00:44:41,620 right now boy that's that's tricky 1065 00:44:46,830 --> 00:44:43,240 because as I've already described you've 1066 00:44:52,260 --> 00:44:46,840 got you've got mark Roger and Mary 1067 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:52,270 Kastner and several really dedicated 1068 00:44:58,380 --> 00:44:54,970 people who are doing whatever they can 1069 00:45:02,520 --> 00:44:58,390 to keep hynix legacy alive and to keep 1070 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:02,530 his records and his archives safe and 1071 00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:05,170 intact and preserve for future 1072 00:45:10,110 --> 00:45:08,800 researchers but they don't it always 1073 00:45:10,589 --> 00:45:10,120 kind of been the money they don't have 1074 00:45:14,190 --> 00:45:10,599 money 1075 00:45:16,829 --> 00:45:14,200 um you know there when Koufos first 1076 00:45:19,170 --> 00:45:16,839 began when Hynek first formed this group 1077 00:45:21,690 --> 00:45:19,180 which was essentially he just basically 1078 00:45:23,039 --> 00:45:21,700 took the invisible college and said hey 1079 00:45:24,749 --> 00:45:23,049 we're coming out in the open now and 1080 00:45:27,210 --> 00:45:24,759 they hung up a shingle and said okay 1081 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:27,220 where we are your friendly neighborhood 1082 00:45:34,739 --> 00:45:32,650 UFO research art music so um but at that 1083 00:45:36,509 --> 00:45:34,749 time the plans were they were budgeted 1084 00:45:38,130 --> 00:45:36,519 for about a to two hundred thousand 1085 00:45:40,829 --> 00:45:38,140 dollars a year this is in the early 1086 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:40,839 1970s to run kuvasz and for a couple 1087 00:45:45,630 --> 00:45:43,930 years they were operating very nicely 1088 00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:45,640 they were bringing in a lot of money 1089 00:45:49,349 --> 00:45:47,440 they had celebrities involved like 1090 00:45:51,420 --> 00:45:49,359 Jackie Gleason and Stan Freberg 1091 00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:51,430 and they had the movie Close Encounters 1092 00:45:57,450 --> 00:45:53,680 which brought a lot of attention to 1093 00:46:00,630 --> 00:45:57,460 convulse and a lot of support but over 1094 00:46:02,519 --> 00:46:00,640 time the financial constraints became 1095 00:46:05,779 --> 00:46:02,529 very very difficult to deal with 1096 00:46:07,950 --> 00:46:05,789 especially after he passed away in 1986 1097 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:07,960 Koufos just went through a period of 1098 00:46:13,289 --> 00:46:10,450 constant downsizing to the point where 1099 00:46:15,390 --> 00:46:13,299 as I mentioned their files are 1100 00:46:18,359 --> 00:46:15,400 essentially stored in people's basements 1101 00:46:20,579 --> 00:46:18,369 and attics throughout Chicago which to 1102 00:46:22,999 --> 00:46:20,589 me is kind of a disgrace I wish there 1103 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:23,009 was a way to come up with the money to 1104 00:46:28,229 --> 00:46:25,450 get all these records in the safe place 1105 00:46:32,670 --> 00:46:28,239 in one place where people like me and 1106 00:46:36,029 --> 00:46:32,680 you can go instead absolutely yeah and I 1107 00:46:38,609 --> 00:46:36,039 mean I think things like your book like 1108 00:46:40,709 --> 00:46:38,619 shining a light on this man's career it 1109 00:46:43,079 --> 00:46:40,719 will invigorate some people be like oh 1110 00:46:45,509 --> 00:46:43,089 my god we are sitting on a wealth of 1111 00:46:47,819 --> 00:46:45,519 information from credible astronomer 1112 00:46:49,469 --> 00:46:47,829 scientists philosophers psychiatrists 1113 00:46:51,569 --> 00:46:49,479 everything you mentioned earlier and 1114 00:46:54,930 --> 00:46:51,579 know that there was something to this so 1115 00:46:57,089 --> 00:46:54,940 let's it's 2017 people what's digitize 1116 00:46:59,759 --> 00:46:57,099 this stuff you know in terms of the 1117 00:47:00,599 --> 00:46:59,769 legacy of Jo and Hynek work you did such 1118 00:47:03,150 --> 00:47:00,609 a good job 1119 00:47:05,969 --> 00:47:03,160 like I said weaving his story in with 1120 00:47:08,489 --> 00:47:05,979 UFO history it was complex it was 1121 00:47:10,170 --> 00:47:08,499 controversial I'm sure it was messy to 1122 00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:10,180 sort of create a narrative around this 1123 00:47:15,569 --> 00:47:12,729 entire thing but he has found his place 1124 00:47:18,029 --> 00:47:15,579 in UFO history mister Hayek as what do 1125 00:47:20,459 --> 00:47:18,039 you take from the life of Hynek after 1126 00:47:22,529 --> 00:47:20,469 digging so deep into his life and career 1127 00:47:23,990 --> 00:47:22,539 well this just came up this morning 1128 00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:24,000 somebody asked me 1129 00:47:29,690 --> 00:47:26,430 question on my blog high strangeness UFO 1130 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:29,700 calm about the future of ethology and 1131 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:32,090 this person asked me if you had 1132 00:47:38,510 --> 00:47:35,610 unlimited money to pursue UFO research 1133 00:47:39,590 --> 00:47:38,520 and you because I had mentioned in my 1134 00:47:41,780 --> 00:47:39,600 blog and I've mentioned this several 1135 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:41,790 times but I think maybe we need to sort 1136 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:44,610 of throw out the way you follow G has 1137 00:47:48,890 --> 00:47:46,650 been pursued so far and come up with a 1138 00:47:52,010 --> 00:47:48,900 whole new approach so this person asked 1139 00:47:53,690 --> 00:47:52,020 me okay you had unlimited money to come 1140 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:53,700 up with the whole new approach what 1141 00:47:57,740 --> 00:47:55,770 would you do first and I thought wow 1142 00:48:02,150 --> 00:47:57,750 that that's a really really fascinating 1143 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:02,160 question and I realized that I would go 1144 00:48:07,310 --> 00:48:04,170 back Mike my thoughts immediately go 1145 00:48:08,930 --> 00:48:07,320 back to something that dr. Hynek said to 1146 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:08,940 his friend and colleague Jacques Vallee 1147 00:48:15,770 --> 00:48:12,210 back when they had flown out to Colorado 1148 00:48:20,690 --> 00:48:15,780 to give testimony to the scientists on 1149 00:48:23,660 --> 00:48:20,700 the Colorado project and they floated 1150 00:48:25,460 --> 00:48:23,670 Denver and they were they were driving 1151 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:25,470 to their hotel and they started talking 1152 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:28,050 about their scientific philosophies and 1153 00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:29,850 they actually started sharing some of 1154 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:32,730 their spiritual and mystical feelings 1155 00:48:38,270 --> 00:48:34,890 which scientists don't always do 1156 00:48:40,430 --> 00:48:38,280 especially not with fellow scientists 1157 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:40,440 mm-hmm but during this conversation 1158 00:48:45,290 --> 00:48:42,810 Jacques Vallee said well what caused you 1159 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:45,300 to get into science Alan you know 1160 00:48:49,310 --> 00:48:47,010 because there's the story around that 1161 00:48:50,930 --> 00:48:49,320 when you were 8 you were sick in bed in 1162 00:48:53,450 --> 00:48:50,940 your mom review in astronomy textbook 1163 00:48:55,970 --> 00:48:53,460 and that's what that's what did it and 1164 00:48:58,730 --> 00:48:55,980 I'm except well the real reason ionica 1165 00:49:00,890 --> 00:48:58,740 science is that I wanted to explore the 1166 00:49:03,620 --> 00:49:00,900 things that science couldn't explain I 1167 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:03,630 wanted to study the fringes the ragged 1168 00:49:08,300 --> 00:49:06,210 edges of science and try to figure out 1169 00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:08,310 the things that we haven't that have 1170 00:49:14,390 --> 00:49:12,090 defied explanation up till now and I 1171 00:49:16,610 --> 00:49:14,400 think that's a really good starting 1172 00:49:18,020 --> 00:49:16,620 point but I think that if you're going 1173 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:18,030 to start there if you're going to start 1174 00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:19,530 looking at the things science can't 1175 00:49:25,700 --> 00:49:23,520 explain it seems to me as as a non 1176 00:49:28,070 --> 00:49:25,710 scientists it seems to me that if you're 1177 00:49:29,870 --> 00:49:28,080 going to start there then you shouldn't 1178 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:29,880 block yourself into the scientific 1179 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:32,610 method because as we all know over 1180 00:49:37,740 --> 00:49:35,370 decades and decades and decades 70 70 1181 00:49:40,620 --> 00:49:37,750 years now of UFO study and 1182 00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:40,630 search the scientific method has not 1183 00:49:46,020 --> 00:49:43,110 exactly been our friend 1184 00:49:48,810 --> 00:49:46,030 it hasn't really gotten us anywhere 1185 00:49:51,390 --> 00:49:48,820 you know but but the general consensus 1186 00:49:54,690 --> 00:49:51,400 is well if you can't prove it using the 1187 00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:54,700 scientific method then it's not true it 1188 00:49:59,190 --> 00:49:57,250 doesn't exist well I think we need to 1189 00:50:00,660 --> 00:49:59,200 get beyond that kind of rigid thinking I 1190 00:50:03,420 --> 00:50:00,670 think this is where Hynek would have 1191 00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:03,430 wanted to go I think he would have been 1192 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:05,680 shinned at some point in the book I said 1193 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:07,690 actually I think this was in my original 1194 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:10,330 book proposal one of my lines was that 1195 00:50:13,890 --> 00:50:12,610 as more and more Americans start to 1196 00:50:16,530 --> 00:50:13,900 wonder what's out there 1197 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:16,540 Hynek starts to wonder what out there 1198 00:50:21,270 --> 00:50:18,850 really means mmm 1199 00:50:23,250 --> 00:50:21,280 in life he was repeating his he had 1200 00:50:25,530 --> 00:50:23,260 become very expensive he was thinking in 1201 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:25,540 terms of alternate dimensions he was 1202 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:28,450 thinking that there was very probably a 1203 00:50:34,260 --> 00:50:30,970 psychic dimensions of the UFO phenomenon 1204 00:50:36,390 --> 00:50:34,270 and not getting into talks about ESP or 1205 00:50:38,730 --> 00:50:36,400 telekinesis but just saying that the 1206 00:50:41,850 --> 00:50:38,740 that someone who has undergone someone 1207 00:50:45,660 --> 00:50:41,860 who has gone through a UFO event a close 1208 00:50:49,380 --> 00:50:45,670 encounter and abduction but part of what 1209 00:50:51,510 --> 00:50:49,390 they have experienced may have been in 1210 00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:51,520 their minds that doesn't mean it's not 1211 00:50:56,490 --> 00:50:53,890 real it just means that there's no way 1212 00:50:58,680 --> 00:50:56,500 in hell we can study that it especially 1213 00:51:00,690 --> 00:50:58,690 if we stick to the scientific method so 1214 00:51:02,070 --> 00:51:00,700 I was really glad that this person 1215 00:51:03,930 --> 00:51:02,080 brought it up on my block today because 1216 00:51:05,610 --> 00:51:03,940 it kind of triggered be stalked in me 1217 00:51:07,260 --> 00:51:05,620 and there but as you can tell they 1218 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:07,270 haven't fully gelled I know I'm kind of 1219 00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:09,970 talking in circles here yeah but again I 1220 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:11,890 just go back to hynek's quote about I 1221 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:13,930 wanted to study the things that science 1222 00:51:18,930 --> 00:51:16,330 couldn't explain so okay we all want to 1223 00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:18,940 study that so why do we rely on science 1224 00:51:23,130 --> 00:51:21,250 to give us the mode of studying that the 1225 00:51:27,050 --> 00:51:23,140 scientific method I think we need to be 1226 00:51:29,370 --> 00:51:27,060 more I think we need to be more open to 1227 00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:29,380 abandoning the traditional scientific 1228 00:51:34,290 --> 00:51:32,170 method when it doesn't when it doesn't 1229 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:34,300 fit the bill and as we all know there 1230 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:36,010 are a lot of instances when it when it 1231 00:51:40,620 --> 00:51:38,170 just doesn't fit the bill this person 1232 00:51:42,330 --> 00:51:40,630 also asks me well again laughing this 1233 00:51:43,710 --> 00:51:42,340 isn't in addition this was the main 1234 00:51:45,180 --> 00:51:43,720 question what would you do if you had 1235 00:51:48,780 --> 00:51:45,190 unlimited funds and I thought you know 1236 00:51:51,090 --> 00:51:48,790 what I would go back to what to me is I 1237 00:51:51,660 --> 00:51:51,100 think the most intriguing on the solved 1238 00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:51,670 UFO 1239 00:51:59,099 --> 00:51:54,720 of all time it's the term Mountain Utah 1240 00:52:01,289 --> 00:51:59,109 movie film and maybe photographer 1241 00:52:03,990 --> 00:52:01,299 Dilbert Newhouse was on vacation driving 1242 00:52:06,170 --> 00:52:04,000 through Utah with his family beautiful 1243 00:52:08,670 --> 00:52:06,180 sunny day not a cloud in the sky and 1244 00:52:10,470 --> 00:52:08,680 mrs. Newhouse looks out the car window 1245 00:52:13,260 --> 00:52:10,480 and says hey what's that up in the sky 1246 00:52:16,319 --> 00:52:13,270 well there are 15 or 20 bright white 1247 00:52:18,390 --> 00:52:16,329 lights sort of cavorting about in the 1248 00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:18,400 blue sky well 1249 00:52:23,069 --> 00:52:21,250 Newhouse pulls the car over goes to the 1250 00:52:25,490 --> 00:52:23,079 trunk of the car he just happens to have 1251 00:52:28,650 --> 00:52:25,500 a 16 millimeter movie camera with him 1252 00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:28,660 and he shoots about 40 seconds of film 1253 00:52:34,980 --> 00:52:31,119 excuse me he shoots about 40 seconds of 1254 00:52:38,250 --> 00:52:34,990 film of these bright objects flying 1255 00:52:41,940 --> 00:52:38,260 about in the sky and he sends the film 1256 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:41,950 to his his higher-ups in the military 1257 00:52:48,210 --> 00:52:45,490 the film ends up going to - most 1258 00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:48,220 technically advanced at the time photo 1259 00:52:54,359 --> 00:52:51,359 research labs run by our government and 1260 00:52:57,240 --> 00:52:54,369 the film is subject to frame by frame 1261 00:53:00,240 --> 00:52:57,250 analysis and after thousands of 1262 00:53:02,789 --> 00:53:00,250 man-hours our country's best photo 1263 00:53:06,900 --> 00:53:02,799 analysts these are people who work for 1264 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:06,910 the CIA and military they cannot explain 1265 00:53:11,339 --> 00:53:09,490 what these objects are they are 1266 00:53:13,410 --> 00:53:11,349 absolutely certain that these objects 1267 00:53:16,109 --> 00:53:13,420 are not Birds they're not balloons 1268 00:53:19,020 --> 00:53:16,119 they're not astronomical phenomenon they 1269 00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:19,030 are something solid and manufactures 1270 00:53:25,230 --> 00:53:21,210 that are either emitting light or 1271 00:53:28,020 --> 00:53:25,240 reflecting light so to me that case is 1272 00:53:29,670 --> 00:53:28,030 kind of a jaw-dropper and it seems to me 1273 00:53:31,349 --> 00:53:29,680 it just just occurred to me again just 1274 00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:31,359 this morning writing writing this out on 1275 00:53:38,069 --> 00:53:33,760 my blog that if I had those unlimited 1276 00:53:40,980 --> 00:53:38,079 resources I would find the closest to 1277 00:53:43,799 --> 00:53:40,990 original copy of that film in existence 1278 00:53:46,740 --> 00:53:43,809 and I would hire the best special 1279 00:53:48,809 --> 00:53:46,750 effects people in the movie industry to 1280 00:53:51,690 --> 00:53:48,819 analyze it not just analyze it frame by 1281 00:53:54,180 --> 00:53:51,700 frame to analyze it pixel by pixel if 1282 00:53:56,339 --> 00:53:54,190 you think about how much imaging 1283 00:53:58,980 --> 00:53:56,349 technology has advanced just over the 1284 00:54:01,849 --> 00:53:58,990 last 10 or 20 years or so if we can 1285 00:54:04,329 --> 00:54:01,859 apply the latest state-of-the-art photo 1286 00:54:07,209 --> 00:54:04,339 analysis science 1287 00:54:10,089 --> 00:54:07,219 to that film I wonder what we would find 1288 00:54:13,299 --> 00:54:10,099 out about it I can only imagine man you 1289 00:54:16,289 --> 00:54:13,309 have a fascinating case and where do you 1290 00:54:18,099 --> 00:54:16,299 got my money where do I send it I 1291 00:54:21,940 --> 00:54:18,109 couldn't agree more 1292 00:54:24,489 --> 00:54:21,950 let's start this now yes okay we'll talk 1293 00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:24,499 after this we'll start a Kickstarter or 1294 00:54:30,309 --> 00:54:28,249 something well uh mark what's next for 1295 00:54:31,930 --> 00:54:30,319 you what I know you know the book is 1296 00:54:34,390 --> 00:54:31,940 just coming out this is an exciting time 1297 00:54:36,969 --> 00:54:34,400 for you as a researcher and an author 1298 00:54:40,599 --> 00:54:36,979 do you have any other upcoming projects 1299 00:54:43,749 --> 00:54:40,609 coming out soon well I have I have three 1300 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:43,759 or four ideas for book projects that I'm 1301 00:54:47,229 --> 00:54:45,650 going to be kicking around over the next 1302 00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:47,239 couple of months it's too early to go 1303 00:54:52,599 --> 00:54:50,930 into them publicly but but I have I have 1304 00:54:55,029 --> 00:54:52,609 some fun intriguing ideas they're not 1305 00:54:57,069 --> 00:54:55,039 all well some of them are UFO related 1306 00:54:58,839 --> 00:54:57,079 but not all of them are ufo-related so 1307 00:55:01,089 --> 00:54:58,849 it's possible that my next book may go 1308 00:55:03,519 --> 00:55:01,099 off in completely different direction in 1309 00:55:05,950 --> 00:55:03,529 the meantime I will continue to blog at 1310 00:55:09,700 --> 00:55:05,960 high stringency fo com that will not 1311 00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:09,710 change and you know continue to continue 1312 00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:12,400 to air commentary an opinion on 1313 00:55:18,099 --> 00:55:15,710 happenings in UFO world whenever I can 1314 00:55:20,769 --> 00:55:18,109 on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter or 1315 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:20,779 my woman so that's that's that's what 1316 00:55:25,509 --> 00:55:23,210 I'll be up to Nick perfect sounds great 1317 00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:25,519 man and again guys the book is the Close 1318 00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:27,650 Encounters Man how one man made the 1319 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:30,650 world believe in UFOs mark I can't thank 1320 00:55:34,509 --> 00:55:32,210 you enough for joining me and again 1321 00:55:36,309 --> 00:55:34,519 congratulations on the book I think this 1322 00:55:39,459 --> 00:55:36,319 will be one of the seminal books when it 1323 00:55:41,890 --> 00:55:39,469 comes to UFO research and who we can 1324 00:55:44,079 --> 00:55:41,900 truly learn from and that is mr. J Allen 1325 00:55:45,700 --> 00:55:44,089 Hynek and yourself included so again 1326 00:55:47,739 --> 00:55:45,710 thank you for joining me and somewhere 1327 00:55:49,420 --> 00:55:47,749 in the skies well I really appreciate it 1328 00:55:50,589 --> 00:55:49,430 Ryan it's been a blast talking with you 1329 00:55:53,140 --> 00:55:50,599 let's do it again sometime 1330 00:55:55,420 --> 00:55:53,150 sounds great that is it for this week's 1331 00:55:57,549 --> 00:55:55,430 episode for any new listeners out there 1332 00:56:00,370 --> 00:55:57,559 thank you for giving the show a chance 1333 00:56:01,809 --> 00:56:00,380 please share the show and if you have a 1334 00:56:04,209 --> 00:56:01,819 moment rate and review the show on 1335 00:56:05,620 --> 00:56:04,219 iTunes I'd certainly appreciate it 1336 00:56:07,749 --> 00:56:05,630 email me with topic and guest 1337 00:56:10,479 --> 00:56:07,759 suggestions spread at somewhere in the 1338 00:56:12,009 --> 00:56:10,489 skies calm all past shows and exclusive 1339 00:56:15,309 --> 00:56:12,019 content can be found on the website 1340 00:56:16,970 --> 00:56:15,319 somewhere in the skies calm next week we 1341 00:56:20,150 --> 00:56:16,980 are joined by Erica 1342 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:20,160 a UFO researcher out of Utah will dig 1343 00:56:24,530 --> 00:56:22,290 deep into some of our most intriguing 1344 00:56:26,660 --> 00:56:24,540 cases it's sure to be an interesting 1345 00:56:29,030 --> 00:56:26,670 interview I'll see you next Monday and 1346 00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:29,040 remember keep your feet on the ground 1347 00:56:50,359 --> 00:56:47,130 but never stop searching this has been